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Jammum (💬 Talk - ✍️ Contribs) 15:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Welcome!
✨Welcome to the Scratch Wiki!✨
Welcome to the Scratch Wiki, Dertermenter! I am Jammum (however I use the account SausageMcSauce on Scratch), an active Scratch Wiki editor and Experienced Wikian.
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Jammum (💬 Talk - ✍️ Contribs) 15:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Welcome to the Scratch Wiki Dertermenter!
Welcome to the Scratch wiki, Dertermenter!
Adzboy • Talk • Contributions • Scratch Profile 18:41, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
Welcome to the Wiki!
Congratulations! I’m Super_Scratch_Bros20, and I’m an editor who is here to help. If you have questions, or if you just want to strike up a conversation, feel free to communicate with me on my talk page! Additionally, this guide should help you get started. You may also want to check the rules, as they will explain how to use the wiki correctly as well.
Good luck editing on the wiki!
Super_Scratch_Bros20 (talk / contribs) 17:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Welcome to the Wiki!
Congratulations on becoming a member of the Scratch Wiki! I'm KangaCoder, an Experienced Wikian. If you have any questions regarding the Wiki or want to just chat, feel free to leave a message on my talk page! The Scratch Wiki is a thriving community with 1,495 articles, and 3,730 awesome users who have helped make the wiki great. Have fun editing! Here's a list of tips to help you edit the wiki:
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Doing...this welcome template was created by leahcimto
KangaCoder talk • contribs • profile 20:00, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Welcome!
VioletCalico (talk | contribs) 02:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Hey there!
78ch3 : [My talk] | [Contribs] | [Main] 02:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
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WikiMonitor (talk | contribs) 18:04, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
I had to removed your essay and your user talk page section of the essay on this page.
 Resolved (since 16:42, 11 January 2024 (UTC))
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Hello! I had to removed your essay and your user talk page section of the essay on this page because it was talking about ban and that is against the CGs. For the essay page specifically, I've emptied the page and included {{delete}} there.
EW+: Please know if I should do this. I'm quite inconfident doing so but I'm pretty sure it's disallowed.
Thanks. 
Purin2022 (talk | contribs) 18:31, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not an EW, but you are correct. I remember I was temporarily banned from Scratch once, and I explained to a user via the wiki why I was banned. I was told by an EW not to discuss ban details on the wiki, or else it could spread the drama onto the wiki.
- Dertermenter -- I'm sorry I didn't mention this to you before when you said you'd make an essay about this subject. This incident happened over a year ago and I completely forgot about it. I'm very sorry about that.
Super_Scratch_Bros20 (talk / contribs) 19:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- To third-parties — there's discussion about this topic going on at dertermenter's Scratch profile.
- To @Super Scratch Bros20 — Well, I get your point, but they are not currently banned anywhere...
- (Also, I added an {{unresolved}} template, since it is not resolved.) Purin2022 (talk | contribs) 21:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Purin2022 -- I just viewed the history of this page and have read the essay in question. When you said the essay was removed for discussing bans, I thought @dertermenter was talking about the details of his ban. However, he didn't do that here. The essay is appropriate for Scratch.
- (Also, I added an {{unresolved}} template, since it is not resolved.)
- @dertermenter -- I apologize if I didn't explain very well how to make an essay page. Let's say you wanted to make an essay called "Dertermenter is cool". You would go to "https://en.scratch-wiki.info/wiki/User:Dertermenter/Essays/Dertermenter_is_cool". It might be worth copy/pasting the link when making an essay.
- It will say the page doesn't exist, but there is a button that says you can make the page. Press the button and start editing.
- It takes a bit of time to get the hang of it, but once you get comfortable with it, it's a lot of fun. Super_Scratch_Bros20 (talk / contribs) 05:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- Hi all, everyone is wrong here.
- It takes a bit of time to get the hang of it, but once you get comfortable with it, it's a lot of fun.
- @Purin2022, constructive feedback about the ban appeals process as a process, which the essay in question does exhibit, is not against CGs or Wiki rules. It's important to be able to suggest improvements to a process in general.
- Also, blanking a page should be reserved for when its contents clearly violate CGs and we can't afford to let it be visible to surface-level inspection by the public. (I say "surface-level" because the old version is still visible in the history. Only deletion truly hides page contents.) In the future, please just add {{delete}}.
- @Super_Scratch_Bros20, a small qualification — spreading drama on the Wiki about your own mainsite ban is grounds for a swift Wiki block. Discussing ban details more generally is simply against CGs and is dealt with as such.
- @dertermenter, your essay has constructive suggestions for the ban appeal system, and while I personally think they're generally of poor quality and lack an understanding of the ST's capabilities and attitudes that jvvg highlighted in one of his essays, they are legitimate points that you are allowed to make, so on that basis alone the essay deserves to stay.
- However, your essay is also framed around your specific experience with your specific ban and subsequent appeal. Discussing details of a user's ban, including your own, is a violation of Scratch Community Guidelines, and so I have removed those details from your essay.
- Additionally, the tone of your essay is combative and makes it hard to appreciate your suggestions as constructive at first glance. As a result, I've also removed a part that exhibited this to the point of actual disrespect violating CGs.
- I've opted to remove the entire paragraphs containing these violations over just [bracket-censoring] them or rewording them myself, so that you can more easily see what was removed in the diff, and to avoid misappropriating your writing style with my own.
- This does mean your essay as it stands right now is a bit incoherent. If you choose to address that, please steer clear of references to your own experience, and generally bring it to a more calm and less defensive tone of voice. I understand that discussing a process without using your experience as an example can be difficult - I suggest you frame it as one possible experience.
- Obiter dictum: I do not like this sudden focus on personal essays. While it is good writing practice, I feel it takes away time from peer-reviewed mainspace editing.
kenny2scratch Talk Contribs Directory 23:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- Obiter dictum: I do not like this sudden focus on personal essays. While it is good writing practice, I feel it takes away time from peer-reviewed mainspace editing.
@Kenny2scratch, this is not true - you are allowed to talk about your own bans after you have been unbanned as long it is done in a way that does not break the Community guidelines, as I am not ban evading nor gossiping. Furthermore, I fail to see how the tone of the essay was "combative" and I really don't think it was disrespectful. I also don't see how my points were flawed and disregraded the Scratch Teams thinking process when the two suggestions are just condensing the appeals process to make it run quicker. I really need to think you need to have a big, thorough think over this since I find the removal of most the essay very questionable, particuarly when talking about your own ban after you have been unbanned is not against the community guidelines.
Dertermenter (talk | contribs) 11:01, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Kenny2scratch I agree with Dertermenter. Not to be disrespectful, but do you have a source that "Discussing details of a user's ban, including your own, is a violation of Scratch Community Guidelines"? Because that's not the case as far as I know. The Scratch Team doesn't usually publicly share information about bans (though they have made exceptions), and speculating about other users can generally get deleted as gossiping, but it's not against the rules to go over your own ban as long as you are since unbanned. I do know that many users have done so with the Scratch Team seeing it, and I've never seen a Scratch Team member say not to. The wiki is the only place I know of where any discussion on bans is not allowed. So, I think some source would be useful; if not, it could be either clarified as a wiki-only rule or removed.
Mrsrec (talk | contribs) 06:12, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
- @dertermenter, Mrsrec: As a preface, I am unilaterally prohibiting dertermenter from discussing their own ban for the purposes of the essay, forever, regardless of the outcome of the broader discussion here. Hopefully that removes any ambiguity for the specific purposes of this topic.
- Now, more generally: I don't have a source for you. But it seems like neither do either of you, unless you would like to provide one now. My impression has been, for a long time, that discussing anyone's specific ban, past, present, or future, no matter whose it is, is prohibited on Scratch, as its own rule and not a result of other rules like "no gossip". That impression comes from generally seeing Scratch Team comments over time as well as seeing what kinds of threads get removed.
- I don't have any specific links to the "Scratch Team comments" I saw, since all of them are far enough in the past that I couldn't find them for you now. If you do have specific links to Scratch Team statements that discussing your own past ban is allowed, please provide them so that I may change my future enforcement behavior (since I don't intend to introduce a Wiki rule in this regard); but until such time you do, I will continue with my understanding of the ST's attitude, and as I said above, this essay is forever bound more strictly.
- @dertermenter, the only part I removed for being disrespectful was the "Um actually" part — even if meant as a joke, it's an unnecessary and disrespectful caricature of your potential opponents. Additionally, the whole section being titled "Countering the counterarguments" makes it look defensive, and the leadup of "I'm sure someone reading this will be thinking" is a combative way of expressing what is more typically worded as "It could be said" or "One might say". Plus overall I think the entire paradigm of anticipating "counterarguments" has no place in what is otherwise a legitimately constructive essay — the section could have just as easily been framed as a simple additional "they are willing to maintain the process, so they should be willing to improve it" argument.
- The rest of the essay was not combative enough for me to remove those parts for that reason alone. However, word choices like the repeated use of "frustrating", while reasonable for occasional use, can make the essay as a whole seem combative. Stick to the facts.
- Your reaction to this discussion has also made it clear that defensiveness and combativeness are your default state of being. "I really need to think you need to have a big, thorough think over this", for example, is not a constructive way of accomplishing what you want, and casts doubt on your ability to write respectfully. A more calm and less provocative way of expressing what you mean would be, for example, "I hope you will reconsider".
- I did not remove any parts of your essay for being "of poor quality" or for lacking ST understanding. I should have more clearly identified that comment of mine as also being obiter dictum; my intended point was that I think the essay is constructive and generally should stay despite my personal opinion regarding its quality — though as highlighted above, your reaction to the discussion casts doubt on that.
- Hopefully this clarifies some things. kenny2scratch Talk Contribs Directory 00:52, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hopefully this clarifies some things.
Here is the source that talking about your own ban is allowed: https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/topic/732904/?page=1#post-7726670
So I think overall, you've started being very nitpicky with what you disliked about the essay and are classifying this as "breaking the guidelines". Yes, the "um actually" part is satire, and whilst I understand this may have not been a best fit in an otherwise serious essay, you are greatly exaggerating of this being "disrespectful" when it was said as just a joke in the essay, it isn't aimed at the Scratch Team. It certainly does not break the guidelines even if you dislike the choice of wording.
Overall, I am quite upset by the treatment you've given me - I've done my best to remain level-headed, calm, and mature in this debate about my essay, and to continue to say my essay was "combative" and to criticise my writing style is quite hurtful, particuarly with your blunt writing style that could also be improved. The reason I was telling you to rethink this desicion is that the claim off "you cannot talk about your own ban after being unbanned" I knew was incorrect, and other points have resorted to nitpicking my writing style which don't break the guidelines (The Scratch Team wouldn't take down an essay since it repeated the word "frustrating", and I used that word since the appeal system is frustrating)
I don't even care anymore about the essay, but I would just like some respect at least.
Dertermenter (talk | contribs) 14:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- I have gathered 2 evidences whether discussing about oneself's ban is allowed. While they say that it's allowed, there are counterarguments for both of them. Click 'expand' to read them.
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- Now on to the rest of @dertermenter post. Again, click 'expand' to read my writing here.
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- I hope my writing helped — this took quite a lot of time to write.
Purin2022 | 💬Talk | 📝Contribs | 🐱Scratch 18:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- to @purrin2022 - I'm not going to be so "mature, level-headed and calm" if the user in question, kenny2scratch, comes across as insulting and nitpicking. Their blunt writing style does come across as disrespectful. the entire "um actually" thing shouldn't have been put, but it's being made out like its an extremely big thing - it really isn't. Repeating the word "frustrating" when that is what describes the appeals process is not "rude" - another example of nitpicking.
- Yes, I still retain that the essay was nitpicked on, and parts of the essay should not be removed for these nitpicks - sure, you may not like the repetition of the word "frustrating" (although I don't regret using that word since it does describe the process) but using that word certainly doesn't go against the community guidelines (overall the subject derailed from "should the essay be allowed" to "reasons why the essay's writing style was flawed) and this along with the blunt writing style, I understandably found @kenny2scratch's responses here quite insulting.
- And we have concluded I am right about discussing ban details.
- Overall though, I will allow the essay to be removed since I don't care about the incident anymore as it has now been posted in suggestions, where it should've always been.
- I would just like it if more if you would understand my point of view, and understand why I was quite upset by @kenny2scratch's initial respons. This can be seen as resolved - I won't respond further. Dertermenter (talk | contribs) 18:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hi everyone, sorry for the late reply. I was travelling and then classes began.
- I think everyone has established, with evidence, that writing about your own past ban is allowed. That closes that portion of the discussion, and I will be operating under that standard moving forward with other cases. The individual prohibition on it in this specific case, as noted above, still stands in perpetuity, and other ways of framing the essay will be necessary in order to comply, should it be reinstated.
- As I said before, the only part I removed for being disrespectful was the "Um actually" paragraph. I removed the whole paragraph to avoid essentially rewriting it in my own voice. I haven't seen anyone attempt to contradict my analysis, only demean it, so unless someone makes a convincing argument that it is in fact not disrespectful, it will need to be reworded if reinstated.
- I removed no other parts of the essay; as I said before, my comments about the reuse of "frustrating" and being combative were, again, (indeed nitpicky) obiter dicta, not related to the CGs, and did not result in removal of any content; you can interpret them as insulting all you like, but they did not pertain to removed content.
- It is certainly upsetting to be misunderstood. I apologize for my overly strict, misinformed interpretation of the rules surrounding ban discussion; however, my decisions do not change. @dertermenter, I see that you've blanked the page yourself. If you wish, I (or another EW) can delete it entirely - in which case you can use {{delete}} on the page or indicate your desire here.
- I'm glad to see that the feedback is being shared on the forums as well. That will bring it to the ST more directly and in a manner they can moderate themselves. I hope the reasonable improvements you suggested are adopted. kenny2scratch Talk Contribs Directory 21:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Please remember to sign your posts
~~~~) at the end of your post to insert your signature and remember to sign your posts in the future. Signing your posts is important as it allows other Wikians to see who made a post. Thanks!
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Note: if you were making an edit to a talk page that wasn't actually a message, in the future you can mark it as minor to avoid a notification.
WikiMonitor (talk | contribs) 09:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
